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hmpfreading titles and summaries of Valentine's Day fic at the comm, I suppose.
I just discovered that - in addition to my general allergy to 'soulmates' ideas etc. - I have a particular dislike of the idea that Gene is somehow the first and only person Sam has met who is really 'right' for him. It's the shippy version of "only 1973 is the right place/time for Sam, he could never be happy in 2006/2007", I suppose. In both cases, I don't like how the problem is externalised. The problem - Sam's problem - is *Sam*. Not 2006. Not other people. *Sam* is the one who is so screwed up as to be unable to live, or love.
Right. Back to the &%§#!% thesis. *sigh*
I just discovered that - in addition to my general allergy to 'soulmates' ideas etc. - I have a particular dislike of the idea that Gene is somehow the first and only person Sam has met who is really 'right' for him. It's the shippy version of "only 1973 is the right place/time for Sam, he could never be happy in 2006/2007", I suppose. In both cases, I don't like how the problem is externalised. The problem - Sam's problem - is *Sam*. Not 2006. Not other people. *Sam* is the one who is so screwed up as to be unable to live, or love.
Right. Back to the &%§#!% thesis. *sigh*
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no subject
Date: 2009-02-13 03:53 pm (UTC)Yes, but I would counter that Gene is the first person to show any positive effect on Sam's screwed-up-ness.
Not that I subscribe to the idea of soulmates either. But, you know, Sam *is* a little more likable when he's around Gene.
Yeah, but at least part of that is due to...
Date: 2009-02-13 07:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-13 03:55 pm (UTC)Which is patently false.
One reason I don't think my original romance fiction would ever sell mainstream. My characters tend to have really messy romantic lives that are not very idealized...and this despite my penchant for happy endings! LOL! oh well.
Yeah.
Date: 2009-02-13 07:03 pm (UTC)And by implication, if you don't live in the right place/meet the right person, you're doomed, and there's nothing you can do, etc.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-13 10:32 pm (UTC)Obviously, I haven't only ever written that kind of fic, but I am sort of writing it at the moment (I'd like to argue not, because I made the suggestion Sam and Maya was more of a love affair and that he still cared for her, but the coma had destroyed the last hopes of their relationship), so, you know, I really hope this isn't still kind of directed at me. I'm going to guess you haven't really been up to reading recent fic, though.
I just think --- Sam's problem definitely has always been himself, but you can't deny that he has a connection with Gene, that the conflict and caring that spans between them means something. And no, I don't just think it's coma madness making Sam more vulnerable. Gene talks to Sam. He tells him the truth, even when Sam doesn't want to hear it. It's fair to suggest Ruth never did, plus Maya avoids pushing him, and according to the script, tells him she's leaving by leaving a voicemail message. He put up that barrier, but previous relationships failed to break through. Gene doesn't always, but he's managed on several occasions.
Sure, to say that Gene and Sam are soulmates and the only people to have ever made each other's lives better is ridiculous and bile-inducing, because they don't always make them better, sometimes they make them worse --- but at the same time, the show suggested that without trust --- without Gene --- Sam's got nothing to believe in. And that, I think, is very telling.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-13 10:45 pm (UTC)Not blaming anyone for anything, just noticed it's a concept that seriously turns me off. That is all. The fandom and the world at large are entirely welcome to write, read and enjoy it.
>Obviously, I haven't only ever written that kind of fic, but I am sort of writing it at the moment (I'd like to argue not, because I made the suggestion Sam and Maya was more of a love affair and that he still cared for her, but the coma had destroyed the last hopes of their relationship), so, you know, I really hope this isn't still kind of directed at me. I'm going to guess you haven't really been up to reading recent fic, though.
This wasn't directed at anyone. I just caught myself thinking, when looking at some recent summaries and titles (and I couldn't even tell you which ones they were; it was a very cursory look), "hey, if this is about what I think it may be about then I *really* don't want to read it, and I think I've just understood *why* I don't want to read it." So, just a random moment of self-recognition. :-)
>I just think --- Sam's problem definitely has always been himself, but you can't deny that he has a connection with Gene, that the conflict and caring that spans between them means something. And no, I don't just think it's coma madness making Sam more vulnerable. Gene talks to Sam. He tells him the truth, even when Sam doesn't want to hear it. It's fair to suggest Ruth never did, plus Maya avoids pushing him, and according to the script, tells him she's leaving by leaving a voicemail message. He put up that barrier, but previous relationships failed to break through. Gene doesn't always, but he's managed on several occasions.
That's why I said 'partly'. I agree that Gene is good at getting through to Sam - probably better than other people have been. I'm just saying he's not a magical miracle worker, and that there are other factors that are also very important.
>Sure, to say that Gene and Sam are soulmates and the only people to have ever made each other's lives better is ridiculous and bile-inducing, because they don't always make them better, sometimes they make them worse --- but at the same time, the show suggested that without trust --- without Gene --- Sam's got nothing to believe in. And that, I think, is very telling.
Yeah, but that is also part of my problem with the show, isn't it? This suggestion that *really*, there is no way Sam could ever live without Gene, that his entire happiness hangs on him. I do have a problem with that. It may be canon, but then, we know there's parts of canon I react rather allergic to... well, this is one of them.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-13 11:02 pm (UTC)Hmmm. You know, even though I'm up here in Central Australia teaching, without the connection to my family that I have over the intertubes and wires, I'm not sure I could be happy. In fact, there have been many times I haven't been. That's sort of what love is about --- it's about not wanting to be without someone. Sure, maybe you could survive; find new priorities, live with memories and thoughts as opposed to tangible reality. And definitely you should. But it's difficult. A lot of that is human nature --- forging connections with others, not wanting them to sever. That aspect of the show, whilst it was remarkably badly handled, was quite true to life. It wasn't a bastion of mental health, or a positive message in any way, shape or form, but it was quite realistic. I mean, it would have been as objectionable an ending had Sam come out of his coma and been lah-di-dah and never worried about the people he had grown to care for.
What kinds of stories would you like to see written? I'm curious.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-14 12:12 am (UTC)Yes, I know. I do know what it is to love and lose and miss people etc. Thing is, you always lose people, it's part of life. And there's rarely, if ever, that *one single person* without whom your life will be truly forever empty and meaningless etc. What there is, is people - sometimes, one particular person - without whom, yes, you will be very unhappy for a while, maybe a long while, and whom you will probably always miss, yes. But - triteness alert! ;-) - life tends to go on. (Also, watching LoM without slash/romance goggles, I really didn't see Gene as *that* indispensable to Sam's continued mental and emotional wellbeing, no matter how well the two of them clicked.)
And I never said that that aspect of Sam's portrayal was not psychologically believable. I just always said and felt and still feel that it was glorified in a way that makes me very uncomfortable and vaguely angry, because it seems to affirm a view of life and happiness that is fundamentally non-conducive to real happiness. And so on. (Sorry. Kind of not in a position to have a real, proper discussion today, with the thesis still looming ominously.)
What kind of stories would I like to see written more of? Well, nothing new there, either. I'm predictable in my obsessions/fetishes...
1.) More stuff set in the present (and not just to focus on how bad everything is in the present - and yeah, I do realise that with canon as it is, that is kind of hard to do without going wildly AU. I guess I'd *like* to see more stuff that was wildly AU, in this regard.)
2.) More stuff that focuses on Sam dealing with stuff instead of just showing him mentally curling up in the magical 'place' (not meant in a geographical sense) he's found with Gene.
3.) Madness fic (I do know there has been some of that, even recently - I'm not saying that *none* of 'my' types of fic exists; it's all just relatively rare.)
4.) More slash that deals with a) the reality of being gay in the 70s; b) growing old together? (Hey, I'm one of those Hellblazer readers who want to see John Constantine progress to age 60+ instead of magically stopping to age like Batman or Superman. ;-) I'm interested in the psychology of ageing.) - And yes, I know there's been some of both of that, too.
5.) More fic that deals with the two-realities thing and other metaphysical stuff, including time travel, and the psychological side of all that. That really was a major draw of the show itself for me.
6.) Fic that deals with being dead.
7.) Recovery fic (preferably without too many melodramatic clichés), and other fic that brings the, IMO, pretty strong 'illness' subtext of LoM to the surface - and *not* always by whumping Sam in 1973, which seems to be the most popular way of dealing with that theme so far... Of course, recovery fic is quite AU, if it's not centered on some new injury or illness in 1973 but on Sam's canonical medical problems... because we all know that in canon he only recovers physically after the coma, and as for later, well, you don't usually recover from death.
8.) Crazy, 'high-concept' AU stuff, treated seriously and at length.
9.) Fic catering to various minor kinks of mine that I can't think of right now. ;-)
Mind you, I'm actually not *too* eager for the fandom to write lots of those types of stories just yet... I *am* currently writing various mixtures of 1.), 2.), 5.), 6.) and 7.), and I'd rather corner the market myself - if there is any market for this kind of thing. *g* - Kidding, obviously, but I do have this silly fear that someone else may write and finish one of 'my' scenarios before I manage to finish my own version - a somewhat natural fear, perhaps, for someone who takes as long to finish things as I do; someone *did* post a video to the song I was vidding before I managed to finish my own...
Well, and aside from the 'cornering the market' issue, I actually find it easier to motivate myself if there aren't already ten versions of each scenario around in the given fandom's fic corpus. I don't like feeling like I'm just retreading something that has been done a dozen times before.
Wow, wordy.
Date: 2009-02-14 12:19 am (UTC)as so often, my 'problem' here (or let's say, my being out of tune with the mainstream of the fandom) comes down to a combination of two crucial facts about my interest in LoM:
1.) I am all about Sam, whereas a large proportion of the fandom is interested in Sam mainly as part of the Gene/Sam dyad.
2.) My Big Kink is existential angst.
These two facts explain nearly everything about my reactions to various elements of LoM and the fandom.
Re: Wow, wordy.
Date: 2009-02-14 12:25 am (UTC)Re: Wow, wordy.
Date: 2009-02-14 12:46 am (UTC)Also, I haven't really been reading fic for about half a year or so. My attempt to read through the community memories stalled at the beginning of 'B', when the thesis work became more intense. The only exceptions I made were for Mikey's and Dak's respective epics, both of which I could not resist because they sounded like they were unusually close to my very particular interests, and I was going through a phase where I needed some form of regular distraction/something to look forward to on a regular basis while working on the thesis, so that ongoing serials were just the thing.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-14 12:24 am (UTC)Heh.
I've written a few of those in different ways, and I have this one idea that sort of incorporates a lot of those themes --- but you'd hate the ending, I suspect.
I am not a Big Fan of AU. And I really don't see the point with LoM.
Gah, I should be working on the frelling thesis...
Date: 2009-02-14 12:41 am (UTC)I know, I know. Pity me! ;-)
>I've written a few of those in different ways, and I have this one idea that sort of incorporates a lot of those themes --- but you'd hate the ending, I suspect.
I know you've written a few of these - and I've *read* a few of them, and I'm fairly sure I commented, too. ;-) Some other people have written fics like these, too. As I said, these types of fic do exist; they're just not particularly numerous. Most of the time I'm quite fine with that, and with trying to provide my own instead. It's vaguely inspiring to know that you may be able provide something that the fandom is not exactly drowning in. ;-)
>I am not a Big Fan of AU. And I really don't see the point with LoM.
Possibly we're both defining AU a bit differently. I don't mean "Gene and Sam during the French Revolution" or "Gene and Sam as vampires" so much (although, as always, a really good writer can convince me of almost anything.) The kinds of AUs I'd really like to see more of are those that play with the various possible explanations of Sam's winding up in 1973 that we speculated about before canon solidified with 2.08. The "Sam's really a time agent from a far future", "Sam's in a Dark City/Matrix-like situation", "Sam's suppressing awareness of his real life and is actually a serial killer" kind of scenario. I can see some of these turning into quite amazing novel-length fics. Wish I could write that kind of thing; I'd love to tackle the Matrix one and the serial killer one.
And of course there's also the kind of AU where one just changes the ending... that's the kind of AU I'm currently writing two of, because obviously I *need* that kind of AU pretty badly. *g*
Re: Gah, I should be working on the frelling thesis...
Date: 2009-02-14 12:45 am (UTC)But, oh right, I write that kind of AU all the time.
Oh, frell.
Date: 2009-02-14 04:24 am (UTC)I do *not* need epic crossover bunnies. Especially not now! Arrgh.