hmpf

I've said earlier that I know from experience that nobody can really help me when I get stuck, and I think that's the truth, if 'help' means 'take a look at the fic fragments and tell me what's wrong with them/tell me what to do next'. However, I've never really tried talking the fic - its problems and my 'mental blocks' - through with someone. I wonder if that would help? I've noticed that sometimes it's ridiculously easy to develop an idea in conversation, but I've never actually tried to use this as a method to tear down/scale/get around the frequent brick walls in my head.

There's a twofold problem with that approach, though: 1.) you'd need a volunteer who's fairly deeply into the fandom you're writing (and, ideally, probably also into the kind of story you want to write - this may in fact be the more important condition), and 2.) that volunteer will be hopelessly spoiled for the final result, i.e. the actual story, in the process. (Optimistically assuming that the process will actually result in a story.)

Anybody have any experience with this kind of thing? Does it help? (Though of course what may help one writer may be useless for the next, anyway, so I'm not sure asking anybody else about their experiences with any kind of technique actually means anything.)

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From:

maestro1123.livejournal.com

It has to be a mate, and it has to be someone you know so totally and utterly that you can say, "Hey but what if Silent Hill were actually contained within a beautiful cake, and Sam Tyler ate that cake, wouldn't the Doctor have to help out? Right?" and know that they'll not only tell you it's shit, but will not judge you for it. That is, I don't think friendship is as important as honesty. There's too much "no that's fine" going on in fandom, you need to find someone who will be happy to tear you down as much as possible.

In my opinion. But I live on criticism to the point where it's unhealthy.

I share I'd say pretty much every fic idea I have over instant messenger with my wall-bouncer, and I think my writing is better for it. Usually we clash about the endings of things - I am incredibly dramatic and want everything to end badly, she usually talks me into something a little less horribly depressing, and I'm better for it. So yeah, I'd recommend it.

Time differences make me a poor candidate for that sort of role, but I'll happily beta anything you throw my way. I consider myself a pretty good beta, if I say so myself (and I do).

From:

hmpf.livejournal.com

>It has to be a mate, and it has to be someone you know so totally and utterly that you can say [snip]

There's nobody in my life who really qualifies for the job if that's the definition.

beccatoria comes closest, but she's my beta, and I have reservations about getting my beta closely involved in the actual writing process. Also, my fannish passions and hers don't intersect much at the moment. She's a kickass beta, though. (I agree with what you said about the necessity of honesty. One of the reasons why I love

beccatoria is that she will tell me if something I've written is shit. Oh, and she *gets* what I'm trying to do in my fic. Sometimes she understands what I'm trying to do more clearly than I do.)

>I share I'd say pretty much every fic idea I have over instant messenger with my wall-bouncer, and I think my writing is better for it.

Re: wall-bouncing. I said I have reservations about the wall-bouncer being the same person as the beta; what's your experience with this? Are these different 'jobs', or is your beta also your wall-bouncer?

>Time differences make me a poor candidate for that sort of role,

I'll be honest: I'd be thrilled to talk to you about how horribly stuck I am. I don't think there's anyone in LoM fandom who really shares my very particular interests, but you seem to come close in at least *some* respects, from what I've seen.

What time zone are you in? I'm an extreme owl, which means I go to sleep when the sun comes up, most days, so the time difference may be less of an issue than you think. Also, there's e-mail.

>but I'll happily beta anything you throw my way. I consider myself a pretty good beta, if I say so myself (and I do).

I'll keep that in mind. If When I finish one of my LoM stories, I may want to use a LoM-specific beta in addition to

beccatoria.

From:

beccatoria.livejournal.com

Well, as you know from the post below, I'm totally willing to chat this through and try to separate my roles as friend and beta. But I also understand that the two might spill over as I might not be approaching things "cold". Still I have reasonable confidence in my ability to at least compensate for that somewhat?

I figure, the more people you have to choose from to chat the better? ;)

With regards to LoM - I do actually REALLY like it (except the ending; but there we agree). I know we watched all of season one, but I actually watched all of season two as well - it was appointment television for me and that's EXTREMELY rare. You're right that it's not one of my fannish passions in terms of joining comms and such, but I have seen it all and (while it might still be an idea to get someone more invested in the show and fandom to beta too) I don't want you to go thinking I'm a casual fan of LoM. If it weren't for the annoying last five minutes I'd probably be saving up for the DVD Box Sets.

Either way, I'm confident I know LoM well enough to be a sounding board and that I'd enjoy such discussions.

...again I really owe you a phone call.

But instead I bought Dharma & Greg!

From:

hmpf.livejournal.com

I kept getting distracted away from LJ yesterday and today.

>Well, as you know from the post below, I'm totally willing to chat this through and try to separate my roles as friend and beta.

I thought as much. It's just... I feel strange, I dunno why exactly (though all the reasons given in various posts in this thread here are part of why), about trying to do this with you. I think... another part of the reason may be that I'm so deep in personal kink territory with a lot of my current WiPs that I kind of wish for someone who 'gets' at least some of that, in the sense of 'shares it'... but then, I'm not sure such a person exists within my sphere of aquaintances at all, my 'kinks' being so strange and specific, so that's probably wishful thinking. ('Kink' is used loosely here. It's not all about sex.)

I think that in talking about my unfinished stories with you I would - involuntarily - tend to focus on the question of 'how do I make this a good story', which, at this point in the process, would be premature and even possibly harmful. I'm still very much in the 'subconscious' phase of writing here, and that's as it should be.

So, it's not really *your* ability to separate the functions of 'friend' and 'beta' but my own that's the issue here.

>I figure, the more people you have to choose from to chat the better? ;)

That is probably true. And in fact there are at least *some* of my stories that I feel could benefit from a chat with you. (Speaking of which... I forget: do you use some IM client? Yes, we should definitely chat on the phone again sometime, too, but IM might be nice as well. Although I keep forgetting to switch mine on.)

>With regards to LoM - I do actually REALLY like it (except the ending; but there we agree). I know we watched all of season one, but I actually watched all of season two as well - it was appointment television for me and that's EXTREMELY rare. You're right that it's not one of my fannish passions in terms of joining comms and such, but I have seen it all and (while it might still be an idea to get someone more invested in the show and fandom to beta too) I don't want you to go thinking I'm a casual fan of LoM. If it weren't for the annoying last five minutes I'd probably be saving up for the DVD Box Sets.

Heh. You could still buy the first season; that one's still pretty good! ;-)

Yes, I know you like it a lot. It's just... well, I guess part of it comes down to the fact that my fics are nearly all about my Mad, Bitter Yet Also Tender Love of Sam *g* and that is *so* central to the fics that I'd like to talk to someone who shares that at least to some degree. I may also want to talk to you about them, but I feel that there are some things I'd need to talk about to someone who's closer to sharing that emotion or amalgamation of emotions.

(I do have some Farscape fics I still haven't given up on that may require talking about with you sometime in the future, though... for those, you'll be my first choice!)

>...again I really owe you a phone call.

Or I you. Uhm... how about sometime next week? You got any preferences?

>But instead I bought Dharma & Greg!

I just bought Shaun of the Dead. :-)

From:

beccatoria.livejournal.com

No worries about late replies - the day after I post doesn't count as late anyway!

I do understand what you're saying, and I also understand that what you're looking for is something very different from a beta. And you don't need to worry, I'm not offended at all by that.

And like you say, I think I'm well-placed to understand your mad, bitter yet tender love for Sam from...from an intellectual perspective; after talking it through with you and watching it with you, I really do think I get that and it's a beautiful, complex sentiment that I look forward to reading about in your fics. But that's something different to pre-story ramblings; to being a...kindred spirit with regards to the character, perhaps?

There's a difference between feeling something on my own, or learning to feel it via empathy with you; and perhaps what you need isn't someone who you have to teach about the way you feel?

But, like I said, if there's ever anything you do want to chat about, I'm happy to oblige. :)

I think I have IM instant messenger, but I'm not certain because I don't really like IM services. I mean, I'm not against them for specific instances to chat at certain times - they're useful; but they're just not a method of communication I feel totally comfortable with, I guess?

Re: Next week - yeah, that sounds fine. Kev's working late so I probably won't be going out or doing anything, so, uh, whichever day's best for you, really! :)

From:

maestro1123.livejournal.com

Hmmmmm, you raise an interesting point. My wall-bouncer is occasionally my beta, but usually not. I don't really have a regular beta as such (which makes me sad) but more I just grab whoever's online and hand them stuff to read. But I understand what you mean, I feel like when I need a beta I want someone to read the fic just as a fic, not as how I read it - an exercise in what I was trying to do and what eventually happened instead. I need a fresh pair of eyes.

What time zone are you in? I'm an extreme owl, which means I go to sleep when the sun comes up, most days, so the time difference may be less of an issue than you think. Also, there's e-mail.

I'm in Japan, which puts me at GMT+8 right now. I work silly hours though, and my net time is usually sort of 10pm to maybe 2am. I'd be happy to chat through stuff with you if this suits, but owing to the aforementioned stupid job, I can't promise when I'll be around. Best bet is to email me and ask me to come online. :)

And the beta offer still stands, now and forever. Just chuck it my way.

From:

hmpf.livejournal.com

>I don't really have a regular beta as such (which makes me sad) but more I just grab whoever's online and hand them stuff to read.

Finding a beta who can *really* help you is one of the most difficult things about writing fanfic, IMO. I was extremely fortunate to find mine. I had many different betas before

beccatoria, but there always remained a faint sense of misunderstanding. I was never really comfortable with the stories, even after thorough betaing. Becca, on the other hand, just... seems to get what I'm trying to do, and what's more, she manages to identify all the bits that strike me as problematical, and she usually can articulate what exactly the problem is. She's very good at explaining my own stories to me. *g* I wish I could reciprocate, but I'm actually a fairly crappy beta. (Not that I beta much; most people wisely prefer a native speaker.)

>I'm in Japan, which puts me at GMT+8 right now. I work silly hours though, and my net time is usually sort of 10pm to maybe 2am. I'd be happy to chat through stuff with you if this suits, but owing to the aforementioned stupid job, I can't promise when I'll be around. Best bet is to email me and ask me to come online. :)

Okay... first I have to do the math to correlate our time zones, though. ;-)

>And the beta offer still stands, now and forever. Just chuck it my way.

It's nice of you to extend that offer to 'forever', because with me it's quite possible I'll take you up on it five years from now. I'm ridiculously slow.