hmpf

Hi,

Was scrolling through someone else's f-list and saw your post - well OK saw your Methos icon, then read your post - and thought I'd add my 0.02p for what it's worth. I've been on-line since 1996. As more and more people came on-line and fannish communities fragment (into yahoo groups and other mailing lists and blogs and LJ's from the original usenet and the few centralised archives that used to exist back when hosting them has difficult and expensive, like TXF Gossamer) I've seen the level of feedback go way down.

And that's not counting in-depth thoughtful feedback.

Many readers (myself included) seem to be multi-fandom and dip into things chopping and changing. Rec pages don't seem to exist as a hub of up to date pimping any more. Archives are scattered, people LJ hop looking for the next shiny icon or vid clip ...

Is fandom less faithful than it was a decade ago?

I'm not sure newbie's were never taught that feedbacking is a polite way of thanking someone for the time they spent creating something you (the reader) enjoy. I'm guilty of this myself albeit to a lesser degree. I only feedback what I adore but then I take the time to give good feedback rather than a smile and a thanks. Am I right? probably not.

As a fic-writer (yes, I'm writing fic again for the first time in years) I adore feedback. It made my day, this morning. But, I write for myself and the characters, first, last & always.

None of this helped much did it?

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>I'm guilty of this myself albeit to a lesser degree. I only feedback what I adore but then I take the time to give good feedback rather than a smile and a thanks. Am I right? probably not.

Actually, that's exactly what I do, so I don't see anything wrong with that. It would be insane, really, to give feedback for everything you read or watch - most of us *do* have a Real Life to attend to beside fandom, after all! *g*

I'm sort of used to people not giving feedback. What I find strange is that people who like your stuff well enough to actually *rec* it don't bother giving feedback. Especially since it wouldn't be that much more work to drop the author a line - maybe even just a cut-and-paste of the rec! Hell, I don't expect long, thoughtful feedback. *Any* sign that someone liked what I wrote is fine! And if you've already gone to the trouble of writing up a short blurb about it, why not send it to the author as well as post it to your recs page or journal? Would that take so much more effort? That's what I absolutely don't get. It doesn't *particularly* annoy me, but it confuses me. There's an attitude at work there that I just don't get. Do these people assume everybody reads their recs page anyway? Or do they assume that we're all drowning in feedback, and hence don't want to bother us? As I said... I don't get it.

>But, I write for myself and the characters, first, last & always.

Same here. Only true reason to write, if you ask me. If I wrote for feedback, well... I'd have stopped writing years ago! I didn't even get significant amounts of feedback back when I started, in 1999/2000. In fact, based on the recs of my stuff I found out about accidentally, my writing has become much more popular in the last three years - probably due to my increasing skill as a writer (I hope *g*). Back when I started I would only get feedback when I posted something to a message board - that's still a pretty sure-fire way to get feedback, incidentally, as people somehow feel more obliged to comment there - but I've always felt that didn't really count. ('Real' feedback is neither from message boards nor from friends but from people you don't know and who don't know you, and who just liked your story so much they felt they *had* to tell you how much they liked it. Or from people who perhaps didn't like it unconditionally but at least saw something interesting in it that warranted a comment.) Well, anyway, nowadays I still don't get individual feedback by e-mail, but at least I occasionally stumble across a site that's reccing one of my fics when going through my site stats. *g* But even that happens rarely, so it's definitely not the feedback or recs that are keeping me going.

But I can't deny that I usually get a huge surge of renewed enthusiasm for writing, especially for picking up one of my more difficult WiPs, on the rare occasions when I *do* receive feedback, or find a rec. So, from that perspective (because I find it inordinately hard, sometimes, to sit down and write), it would be nice to get more feedback, simply because it *helps*. It's like recharging your writing batteries or something.

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rasmizar.livejournal.com

And if you've already gone to the trouble of writing up a short blurb about it, why not send it to the author as well as post it to your recs page or journal? Would that take so much more effort?
(Just for the record: I'm the one who recced "Endure" in

highlander_lj, and I didn't give feedback then, because I'd already given it a couple of month's ago, and I'm lazy *g*)

The numbers are indeed a bit astonishing - one would think that out of so many readers more would respond. But then I'm a reader who seldom gives feedback, so I'm not throwing any stones. Perhaps everyone thinks something like 'sure all the *other* readers will give feedback, so it doesn't matter if I don't because I don't have the time/don't know what to write/am to lazy'... ?
I have to confess I often think along those lines, and then I'm taken aback when some writers tell about how little feedback they get.

In this case I guess the people who commented in

highlander_lj or

crack_van thought that was enough of a feedback (...and of course everyone reads every comment in every lj-community *g*)

Anyway, I hope you'll get more feedback for your stories, especially "Endure", because it's really worth it.

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so you're off the hook. ;-)

But, seriously, anyone who writes fanfic should realise that every bit of feedback counts as it's such a rare commodity.

Or do all those people who don't give feedback get loads of feedback and think that happens to everyone? Well, it certainly can't be said for me! I'm not sure if I'm above or below average with this, but I get about two to three feedback mails per year for my older stuff - and that's *not* two to three per story, but two to three between the lot of them (I've got around 10 stories, I think). Most of that has been for 'Together' in the last two years or so. Before 'Together' I got even less feedback - maybe one mail per year. All of this is not counting feedback on mailing lists etc. immediately after the release of a fic, as reactions are always a bit more generous directly after publication, although even there I never got overwhelming amounts of feedback. But I'm talking long-term feedback here.

By the way, when I was ranting about reccers who don't tell you they've recced you I mainly meant people you really rec you on a dedicated recs page or recs journal. When you rec something, basically, to a friend in private, even if it's the 'public privacy' of their livejournal, I wouldn't expect you to drop the author a line. I don't e-mail authors to tell them 'hey, I just recommended your fic to my mate XY', either, after all. *g*

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Please don't skewer me with a sonic screwdriver. Went to your site to check out the crack van rec. Clicked on Methos and am reading your ode to the ROG. Got as far as:

"Terribly sorry, but I don't feel well; I'd rather not eat today."

And realised that I had to bugger up the comments section to say something, anything because this is just perfect. Your attraction/fascination/obsession is just fabulous to read about and I've been there. I know what this is like, I've cried when tapes got mangled or moments of a show didn't tape. Don't think I went hungry but I have been there ;-)

... claiming that this thing I'm experiencing at the moment is probably preparing me for reality, that it is a kind of rehearsal people normally go through a little earlier - but I've always been a bit slow!

I too was a late developer with a rich internal life. Did I fall out of fandom as I fell into life? No. The intensity of the feelings did wane but I still felt the same way. If characters are real to you then they're real to you and similar types attract much as in real life. What kills me is when cannon writers take a character and change him/her out of all recognition. We were lucky with Methos that the HL writers were of a certain caliber And thus I wouldn't be surprised if *Peter* changed words on a page and gave us the richness and texture, contradictions and multifaceted-ness that became Methos.

But then again I believe that some fictional characters are so real that they exist, living in a universe just next to this one. What was it Richard Bach wrote? *scuttles off to find quote*:

If you will practise being fictional for a while, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and heartbeats.

As far as I'm concerned, one quantum road along and to the right, Methos lived in Paris ten years ago and in now probably deciding where he's going to move to in london as living in a huge house by the embankment was calling a little too much attention to him. But you see he's not the only character that's real to me.

Angel was real to me before David Boreanaz throttled him. Severus Snape is as real to me as Methos. The Doctor is increasingly real to me and through him Jack and Rose... I have loved many characters (Mulder, Scully, Krycek, Skinner, Sam, Josh - TWW - etc. etc.) but not all have been real to me. I will always adore Methos.

Sorry for the tangent

Read "Endure" well read about 1/2 which f-ing broke me. Thank you very much, you write poetic, descriptive, sparse prose. It's haunting and painful and turns survival into a nightmare. Thank you very much. *sobs heart-brokenly*

In comment to your above points ;-) I just wanted to say that I love the fact feedback seems to motivate you much like deadlines motivate other writers. And I hear you, procrastination is a writer's real addiction.

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>Please don't skewer me with a sonic screwdriver.

I'm not even sure that's physically possible. ;-)

>And realised that I had to bugger up the comments section to say something, anything because this is just perfect. Your attraction/fascination/obsession is just fabulous to read about and I've been there. I know what this is like, I've cried when tapes got mangled or moments of a show didn't tape. Don't think I went hungry but I have been there ;-)

Thanks. Actually that's the piece of fannish writing I get the most feedback for - even after so many years (it was written in 1998 and put online in 1999, I think). I think I really struck a nerve with that one.

>and similar types attract much as in real life.

I hope I'm not attracted by similar types in Real Life... All the fictional guys I've been attracted to have been mentally unstable, aliens, immortals, mass murderers... etc.

Then again, if I really am only attracted to those kinds of men, that *would* explain why I'm still single at nearly 29... everyone 'real' and well-balanced just is too boring for me...

Arrgh, I'm so frelled up. I seriously need to learn how to fancy normal people.

>Read "Endure" well read about 1/2 which f-ing broke me. Thank you very much, you write poetic, descriptive, sparse prose. It's haunting and painful and turns survival into a nightmare. Thank you very much. *sobs heart-brokenly*

Heh. Why do I always get feedback that ends with people crying? *sadistic grin* And I think that's the first time my prose has been called sparse. But, thanks. I hope you can bring yourself to read the second half sometime - there *is* some progression there, it doesn't just go on and on like it started.

>I just wanted to say that I love the fact feedback seems to motivate you much like deadlines motivate other writers.

Oh, deadlines motivate me, too, but I've been too busy to participate in the last few lyric wheel challenges. Also, I generally find I'm able to deliver better work without a deadline, even though it may take years to finish a story.

But as for feedback motivating me - doesn't it motivate everyone? I don't mean that in a 'I write for feedback' way - but isn't it natural to get a burst of enthusiasm if someone tells you they like what you're doing? I would have thought that was pretty much human nature...

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I seriously need to learn how to fancy normal people.

Oh I know that one. Haven't solved it either

I hope I'm not attracted by similar types in Real Life... All the fictional guys I've been attracted to have been mentally unstable, aliens, immortals, mass murderers... etc.

Please... don't you mean, sarcastic, highly-intelligent, cynical, (covering a warm heart that's been broken once too often?) slightly misanthropic survivors? Not to mention being elegant, sexy...

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>Please... don't you mean, sarcastic, highly-intelligent, cynical, (covering a warm heart that's been broken once too often?) slightly misanthropic survivors? Not to mention being elegant, sexy...

Yeah, that too... The problem is that I find their more unsavoury/impossible traits even more attractive than their more 'mundane' ones...

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Fangs & Katana-space? :-P

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torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com

People don't feedback. I checked my stats recently and was astonished to find how many people are visiting my site. Actually, most of them seem to be visiting Ufthak's Gandalf's Diary, but nevertheless ... however, I don't get much feedback. I got the most when I was posting my Jack Sparrow fics on ff.net. It doesn't meant they're not reading!

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Yeah, I know... it's just the fact that even the people who actually *rec* fic don't tell the authors about it that gets to me.

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*iz boggled by whole feedback and lj thing anyway*

I'm sitting on the dock of the bay peering out to see if I can see the highlander ship from here anyway - but I see a boji!

*smooches hmpf partly because I drank too much cider* :) That's a bizarro percentage of views to feedback, even to my half-closed, pissed-up, and entirely unexperienced lj eyes.

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And look up there, hmpf - that boji there is one to keep your eye on, if you might ever be tempted by the thought of Doctor/Methos fic....

I think I need to find out more about this Methos geezer (although actually, I probably need to sober up massively before I do anything else, heh)

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Methos may be "just a guy" but he's not a geezer.

Best Methos fic (if you're finding more out about him...) not sure. So much of it is gorgeous.

Fic by Chelle, (http://chelle.slashcity.org/highlander/index.shtml)(who wrote the greatest fic about trust and er fisting ever... And who also wrote "The Cookie Story" which is a WIP I love) Killashandra, (http://seacouver.slashcity.net/killa/index.html) - Whose "Gift of the Raven" is a *must* and who BTW just updated her Rec's page and who recc'd the Dead Zone fic that I read, loved and then recc'd on my LJ McGeorge, (http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/)Who wrote "Endgame" way before any movie had that title and came up with the greatest way to end the game. Oh if only that novel were slash *sigh*, Rachel Sabotini (http://www.mediafans.org/rachael/index.html)wrote fic, Maygra wrote superb fic...

Fall in love with Methos and you'll need a trip aboud the TARDIS to have time to read it all.

He's usually a matched set with Duncan McLeod of the Clan and gorgeous fic can easily be accessed at Future's without End (http://mediafans.org/futures/) which is an online zine.

My find of the evening? Julie Fortune who used to write as RCL and who writes the best Methos Gen fic ever. But then again, she's a pro author who sometimes writes fic under that penname.

And yes, *sometimes* Boji does read Gen fic.

aminspace If you're into SG-1 (are you? Why would I think you are?) there is a good Gen x-over novel length fic with Methos. Would have to dig title/author out of my memory tho'.

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add my own recs - mostly gen, I'm afraid, and the only slash on there isn't slashing him with Duncan, as I can't stand Duncan ;-)

http://www.allabouthmpf.com/meth_ffrecs.htm

You may have to google for a few of those authors, as I'm not sure all the links are still working. I should update that page, really.

I especially recommend Selena, Sylvia Volk, Amand-r, and second the rec of Julie Fortune. Oh, and that insane X-Files crossover by wombat is a must read, as well. Great dialogue.

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So many fics! but they will have to wait until I get back from hols, now.

I haven't seen any of the HL series, I only saw the film. Which I did love.

And I don't know anything about SG-1 either. Not a thing!

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>So many fics! but they will have to wait until I get back from hols, now.

Have a nice holiday! Where are you going? We'll miss your squee!

>I haven't seen any of the HL series, I only saw the film. Which I did love.

I'm actually a bit conflicted when it comes to HL. I like some of the concepts, and some of the characters (Methos, Joe, Amanda, even Richie), but I thought the series as a whole left a few things to be desired. But the fandom is wonderful - my very first fandom! - and has produced some of the best fic I've read anywhere. Plus, Methos is still my definition of male perfection.

>And I don't know anything about SG-1 either. Not a thing!

I don't know much about SG-1 either, except that I sort of liked some of the stories that I saw but got bored eventually because there didn't seem to be a lot of character development (I've seen about one season). But if we're plugging space shows - why not give Farscape a try? ;-) (Hehe, sorry, Boji - I'm an incorrigible Farscape pusher... I *have* to try... Of course, aminspace is perfectly free to give *both* shows a try. *g*)

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Hee. I have watched a bit of Farscape, and I always enjoyed it. Lovely to look at, too. I just didn't fall for it in the same way I have other shows, at the time - but I hadn't seen it from the start either, which never helps.

They're showing it on BBC3 at the mo, don't know if they plan to repeat it on 2. And didn't it finish, and then come back, or something?

I love the concept of Highlander, too. And the lovely scenery (I lived on Skye for a short while, it's a stunningly beautiful place).

And I'm going to Cornwall, leaving tomorrow and coming back Friday night - so I'll be back for the last Who *pained expression*

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>Hee. I have watched a bit of Farscape, and I always enjoyed it. Lovely to look at, too. I just didn't fall for it in the same way I have other shows, at the time - but I hadn't seen it from the start either, which never helps.

Esp. not with a show whose main strength (apart from truly alien aliens) is consistent, long-term character development.... Definitely try to give it another chance if there are reruns again. It's worth it. Hey, I devoted a large part of the last five years to it; I'm *bound* to say that, aren't I? *g*

Best character development you get in genre TV outside of the Whedonverse, IMO.

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and the only slash on there isn't slashing him with Duncan, as I can't stand Duncan ;-)

Some authors do write him well and do justice to Methos' love for him. And let's face it, ill-advised or not the old man did fall for the not too open-minded, judgemental Scott. There are fics where Duncan stops clinging to the caricature he made of himself and grows, evolves and returns Methos' love. There are fics where he isn't blinkered and blind.

And it's wonderful when he loves Methos. But hey I'm biased.

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but I prefer fic that's set either before he meets him or in phases of his life when he's not together with him - even if I don't deny the relationship exists (whether as friendship or slash doesn't really matter) I'm just not very interested in it and don't want to read about it. So I mostly read character exploration fic and fic about Methos' past.

Actually, I almost always prefer character exploration fics to relationship exploration fics, with the near-exclusive exception of Remus/Sirius (oddly for a non-slasher who usually sticks close to canon and isn't particularly fond of Harry Potter, the only couple I really ship is a Harry Potter slash ship. Yeah, I know... I'm weird. I can't explain why they work so well for me.)

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is that it often seems to assume Methos is now totally dependent (emotionally) on Duncan, and I just don't see that. Unfortunately it seems to be confirmed by the series' finale episodes in which he's shown to have reverted to his 'evil' self just because he never met Duncan. I mean, excuse me - the man lived a non-evil life for *millennia* after his Horsemen days and before he met Duncan. Why should he suddenly relapse just because he didn't meet a certain noble Scot in 199whatever? I *can* see him relapse - but not that easily. (Yeah, I know it was because the woman he loved had been killed, but even so... something doesn't compute.)

Arrrgh, gotta work.

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Yes, you do see a Boji. *waves*

A Boji who is now going to forget about Methos walking across burning (radiation blighted?) desert, freezing, dying, reviving, freezing, dying, reviving... (Thank you

hmpf)

This and not blow-jobs is why fic should have warnings. I left Methos and the Doctor in a pub. Am heading there pronto. Wonder if the boys have left me any beer?

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>This and not blow-jobs is why fic should have warnings.

I take that as a compliment. ;-)

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Please do!

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cause I'm posting from work, which really I shouldn't do, but...

;-)

No, that desert isn't radiation blighted. It's just an alien, uninhabited planet. There's a whole universe of backstory for that story that I had to figure out in my head but couldn't include in the story itself...

And don't worry, he's not going to continue like that forever... not that it's getting *better*, exactly... *eg*

And what's that intriguing info

aminspace gave me about you and Doctor/Methos? Were you the person I was talking to on

time_and_chipsabout that? Or was that someone else?

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No, that was me.

And It's not as if

aminspace has even read the first draft! The backstory to this is that I got bitten by a Captain Jack bunny last week, while working on the Methos/Doctor fic and thus had to explain to Methos that I was only going to focus on Jack/and the Doctor for a moment or two.

That moment turned into 2900+ words entitled "Bathtubs & Bananas" and it looks as if it might spawn a sequel, in that I had the next scene in mind from Rose's POV.

But I'm heading back to the pub (the fictional one) this weekend to meet up with Methos and the Doctor again. It's currently 1st draft 5000+ words and I'll be hammering out revisions form later today. It's pre-slash or post-slash. It's fabulous fun to write and if it didn't mean I'd end up writing a novel (Which RL doesn't permit at this point) I'd go utterly AU and have Methos deciding to bypass Duncan's Clan insanity/the gathering & move into the TARDIS.

But hey let me get a first draft locked, er first.

Then I'll pitch a tent over in

highlander_lj and beg for a beta.

Bear in mind that I did 3 rewrites for "Bathtubs" so this might not hit the web till after the end of the show. Makes little difference mind you, it's set between "Father's Day" & "Empty Child"

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'Bathtubs and Bananas' is a great title. Looking forward to the fic. :-)

Wow... you're one of those people who can actually write a 5000+ word story in a few weeks... I envy you. I wish I could be fast, too. I'm one of those people who consider it an exceptionally good day when they've written half a page. Most days I don't get around to writing at all, though, and on a *normal*, non-exceptional writing day I only manage a few sentences. Hence the dearth of fic on my page - about 10 fics in 5 years isn't really a lot, is it?

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I did make it clear that "Bathtubs" is the Jack/Doctor fic? *Scrolls up* Yup think I did.

5000+ words in a few weeks is fast? Really?! *gulps* I've come back to writing fanfic (in the last month) b/c I got accepted into an MA Creative Writing program that starts in September and am terrified that I *don't* write fast enough. So part of this is honing speed. Another part is pushy muses.

My aim is to get up to 1000 on weekdays and 2500+ on weekends.

about 10 fics in 5 years isn't really a lot, is it?

Yes, but it's about quality not quantity No? Prior to this month, well look in my memories. I'd only written 3 short fics and one multi-part since when? 2002? 2001?

Talk to me at the end of the month and let's see if I'm truly prolific.

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You know, I thought about picking up a pen while I'm on holiday - the main thing that's putting me off is that I just know my nosy ma would get her hands on it, and I don't want my mother reading my pron.

It's not as if aminspace has even read the first draft!

I'm bad, aren't I? No pressure *g*

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